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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Alright, raiders! With TRI's ongoing endeavors in various 25-man instances in LK, it's about time we got you guys some information about the loot system we're going to be working with, as it requires mutual participation by everyone in the raid.

TRI is going to be running a loot council in 25-man raiding, which is to say, fair distribution of loot managed by the officers of the 25-man raid. As Naxxramas is something of an entry-level raid for Wrath of the Lich King, we figured this would be the perfect time to experiment with a new system and see how everyone in the raid likes it - especially a system designed specifically around the idea of spreading out the gear to get people ready for future challenges. We've found that so far through WOTLK, the Loot Council system has worked pretty well for us, so it's probably staying for the time being.

At its most basic, the system goes like this:
- Every month, everyone gets to Wishlist five items. That thread gets posted and is managed by the Lootmaster.
-Loot drops. People who are not the master looter grab their badge(s) and move on to the next pull.
-The master looter links an item. Maybe someone has Wishlisted that item, whereupon these people will have priority between them.
- If there's more than one person, these people get to link their current piece in that slot to raid chat.
-The officers have a quick chat about it, weighing the size of the upgrade, the usefulness for the classes interested, previous loot received by the people bidding, attendance, previous efforts to gear up outside the raid, and how low Tarquin will fall on the damage meters if you get the upgrade. We come to a decision and hand out the item.
- If there's nobody who has Wishlisted the item, it's offered on the same basis to everyone in the raid - link what you might replace, and the Loot Council will chat about it.
- Repeat until boss is stripped bare.

On the surface, it seems a little micromanage-y, and obviously there's a bit of hesitation at putting the decision entirely in the hands of seven fallible human beings. But having done a few runs with a 25-man raid using this system, as a mere drone, I was pleasantly surprised by how well it worked - not just in terms of distribution, but speed as well. Rarely did the officers have to deliberate for more than 30 seconds or so, and as nothing but an undergeared drone I was able to walk out with several 25-man epics.

There's also an additional element to add control to the players who would really like a particular item - the Wishlist. Very simple in implementation - everyone who would like to be raiding with us, regular or sub, can make a list of up to five items they would like. If an item drops that's on your wishlist, the Loot Officer will probably mention your name as he/she links the item. People then link the item they're replacing. A wishlisted item will be heavily taken into account by the officers; it's very nearly a guarantee, unless of course someone else has it on their wishlist. There is a current Wishlist thread up on the Loot sub-forum, currently being updated monthly. Go look for it for specific rules of the road.

A few details and errata, to hopefully answer likely questions:

-Officer discussions will be based on a consensus; we'll put it to a vote if we have to but I don't expect that to be necessary.

-If we absolutely can't figure it out, or if people seem to have equal need for an item, we'll just call for a /random 100 between the people we deem worthy of the upgrade.

-People will be asked to post their wishlists publicly. Part of the success of the wishlist system is that people will be able to see what upgrades their fellow raiders need and bid accordingly - in fact, downright expected to.

- Wishlists are likely updated monthly, with the prevailing instances in which we are raiding to form the basis for items wanted.

- Special drops including but not limited to rare mounts (ie:Reins of the Black Drake), and quest drops such as keys (ie: Heroic Key to the Focusing Iris), buff (ie: Head of Nefarion), or collection (ie: Base, Frame or Shard of Aitesh) items will be awarded via loot council or a /random 100 among regulars only. If ever in doubt, DBAD above all else.

-If you get one of the items on your wishlist, we'll cross it out on the consolidated list.

-One of the concerns raised while the officer corps discussed this system was that people who had gone to great lengths to gear themselves up outside of raiding, with craftables and rep rewards, would be punished by this system. Rest assured, we'll keeping an eye on who's coming in decked with expensive craftable epics and who's sorta half-assing their way through things waiting for epic 25-man drops to be thrown at them. It's likely that early in the system things will lean more towards biggest upgrade, just because we're still getting a picture of things, but that'll even out after a few weeks.

-DBAD has worked pretty well for us so far, and we'd like to see this continue into LK raiding. Let's try to be sensible about things. Obviously we haven't covered every little item because we're appealing to common sense. For instance, rolling on tier armor tokens for offspec purposes when others have yet to get them for their main spec is uncool. Listing two of the same item because you dual-wield doesn't not make it one item of five on your loot wishlist. Stuff like that.

-Try to consider your fellow raiders in this respect. If something is a 'best in slot' item for another class, compared to it being a 'meh' upgrade for you, it might behoove you to pass. Sure, you don't get that loot at the time, but the karma will pay off. Your raid officers will certainly notice and there will be appreciation. For instance, for really popular items, we understand that they're upgrades for lots of people, especially things like weapons and trinkets. That said, we're also looking to distribute loot fairly, so getting other items that are not on your wishlist will reduce your "priority", since it's in the best interest of the raid to make everyone's gear better, and not just bulk up one or two people, even if they get 4 pieces of gear upgrades that nobody else happens to want and then a wishlist item drops. Basically, remember MC? We're aiming for at least one item per raider per run. We'll be trying as much as possible to keep that vibe going.

-Finally, remember that this is an experimental system, to go with our experimental raiding. If it works out with minimal drama, fair distribution of loot, and low upkeep, then we'll be happy to stick with it, but if there's problems, I'll be the first to say "Sorry, guys!" and cobble together a tune-as-you-go DKP system or something similar. So, please trust the judgment of your officers and express your disagreements in a reasonable fashion, preferably not in the middle of a raid. Tarquin or Belphegor will be your go-to people for filtering problems, and we're always happy to chat when not flailing around madly.

That's all I've got for now; if you've got any further questions, please post em up! Otherwise, start working on that wishlist, and we'll have the thread up shortly to get loot wants public.

edited for updates as we roll - Belph


"Someday, you're going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I'm around to see it."
-The Lies of Locke Lamora, Scott Lynch


Last edited by Anonymous on Tue May 12, 2009 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:53 pm 
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I'm assuming we're still doing main specs going first in linking stuff, and if no one wants it, then offspec people go?

Similarly related, is there going to be mainspec and offspec wishlists, or just one? I'd assume that obviously a mainspec need would override an offspec wishlist (if such a thing is even possible), but after that, everything goes up in the air.

And yes, I may have a certain vested interest in this, with me respecing my characters frequently. >.>
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:21 am 
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Yeah, main specs go first.

At the moment we're only going to be using one wishlist per person. If it appears we're getting enough competition on off-spec stuff to introduce a second wishlist that's a possibility, but with the consolidation of caster gear I don't think that's going to be a big issue.


"Someday, you're going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I'm around to see it."
-The Lies of Locke Lamora, Scott Lynch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:34 am 
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Cool... Wishlists can get a bit fuzzy with the collection of stat goals even hunters have...

Should we be including any 10 man content or just 25?


Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:53 am 
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ultang wrote:

Should we be including any 10 man content or just 25?



Just the 25-man Naxx and Sartharion stuff. See the loot wishlist thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:41 am 
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Does tier stuff go on the list?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:42 am 
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Yep, Tier 7 tokens are admissable loot choices.


"Someday, you're going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I'm around to see it."
-The Lies of Locke Lamora, Scott Lynch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:44 am 
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Cool. Sorry for allt he questions!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:49 am 
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No problem.

However, request that people redirect their questions here!


"Someday, you're going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I'm around to see it."
-The Lies of Locke Lamora, Scott Lynch


Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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